Edmund Kemper documentary – In his own words [w/ subs]

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00:00:47 – Did you like Kemper? I liked him. You were able to appear like an ordinary person
00:00:53 – non-threatening – I lived as an ordinary person most of my life even though I was
00:00:59 – living a parallel on increasingly sick life other life. One victim let me back
00:01:05 – in the car I locked myself out she opened the door for me. My gun was under
00:01:12 – the seat. What the h*** am I doing telling you that. Am I looking at… Am I a
00:01:17 – m********, am i looking to be tormented further or trying to show you just how
00:01:23 – awful the scot how commanding this rage has gotten I was raging inside. There was
00:01:29 – just incredible energies positive and negative depending on a mood that would
00:01:39 – trigger one or the other and outside I looked troubled at times
00:01:44 – other times I looked moody other times perfectly serene not very sane, but again
00:01:54 – people weren't even aware of what was happening. In 1972 and 1973 a series of
00:02:00 – murders shocked Northern California college girls began to disappear while
00:02:05 – hitchhiking. Two of the victims were picked up from the campus of the
00:02:10 – University of California at Santa Cruz. That's where Ed Kemper's mother was
00:02:15 – working as an administrative assistant. You were involved in the campus because
00:02:19 – your mother worked there. Yes, I was also involved in killing coeds
00:02:25 – because my mother was associated with college work college co-eds women and
00:02:31 – had had very strong and violently outspoken position on men. For much of my
00:02:39 – upbringing my mother was a sick angry hungry and very sad woman. I hated her
00:02:47 – but I wanted to love my mother and I watched the alcohol increase I
00:02:53 – watched her social life drop off I watched her get bizarre. She had
00:02:58 – terrible pain from her life earlier life her upbringing
00:03:02 – a failed marriage with my father. I'm a constant reminder of that failure I hate
00:03:07 – to distill it down into such into one-word realities like that there's a
00:03:13 – lot that leads into that happening, but that is what happened. They represented
00:03:17 – not what my mother was, but what she liked what she coveted, what was
00:03:21 – important to her and I was destroying it. Why did you actually kill the girls?
00:03:27 – My frustration, my inability to communicate socially, sexually.
00:03:35 – I wasn't impotent but emotionally I was Impotent. I was scared to death of
00:03:41 – failing on male-female relationships I knew absolutely nothing about that whole
00:03:46 – area even, if just sitting down and talking with young lady. I needed to be
00:03:52 – able to really communicate and ironically enough, that's why I began
00:03:55 – picking people up and I'm picking up young women and I'm going a little bit
00:04:00 – farther each time. It's a daring kind of a thing. First, there wasn't a gun. I'm
00:04:05 – driving along we'd go to a vulnerable place where there aren't people watching,
00:04:10 – where I could act out and I say no, I can't and then a gun is in the car,
00:04:15 – hidden and this craving, this awful raging eating feeling inside I could
00:04:24 – feel it consuming my insides, this fantastic passion,
00:04:33 – it was overwhelming. For me, there's like drugs, it was like alcohol a little, isn't
00:04:38 – enough. At first, it is and as you adjust to that psychologically and physically
00:04:43 – you take more and more and more it's the same process so it finally came down to
00:04:48 – the thing of “do I dare bring this gun out” already realizing if that gun comes
00:04:52 – Out, something has to happen. It was going to happen, I didn't see it then, but it
00:04:57 – was going to happen. I was playing a dangerous game with a loaded gun
00:05:00 – that got us all on one occasion. Kemper picked up two roommates in Berkeley
00:05:11 – and that first killing in May of ’72, when that gun was pulled out, I launched it
00:05:17 – out, I hid it under my leg, out of sight, parallel to my… to my leg in the
00:05:22 – seat. It was something that had been fought out in fantasy, acted out, felt out
00:05:28 – hundreds of times before it ever happened.
00:05:32 – Kemper drove them at gunpoint to a secluded area near a park he took one of
00:05:37 – them into the woods leaving the second girl tied in the car. I just gone through
00:05:42 – a horrible experience with her roommate stabbing her and I was in shock because
00:05:47 – of that, I couldn't believe that it was that way and I'm walking back there
00:05:50 – Bewildered. I got a kill, I can't let her go, she's gonna of tell on me.
00:05:55 – Everybody's gonna get me.
00:06:01 – She sees the blood on my hands and says “what are you doing?”
00:06:03 – She pulled back and she gasped and I think “Whoa, I don't want her to know what
00:06:10 – happened”. I said “Your friend got smart with me”, she'd been getting really smart
00:06:15 – with me a lot, but I never hit her. I killed her, but I didn't hit her. I said
00:06:19 – “Your friend got smart with me and I hit her, I think I broke her nose, you’d better
00:06:22 – come help.” She's about to die, why don't… why does she have to know that? I
00:06:28 – couldn't deal with telling her that when I attacked her she didn't at first
00:06:33 – realize what was happening, it didn't go through, she had a very heavy coveralls
00:06:36 – on it. It knocked her right up into the lid of the car, but it didn't pierce the
00:06:40 – Clothing, so wasn't that swell a knife Anyway, when I bought a p*** shop huge
00:06:48 – knife and I kept on to just mindlessly attacking. She falls back into the trunk.
00:06:57 – I just killed a young woman, I slammed down the lid of the trunk. She's dead,
00:07:03 – she's dying and I panicked. I thought I just locked the car keys in it, because I
00:07:09 – can't find them in my pocket. Oh my God, I locked them in the trunk! I'm kicking on
00:07:14 – the trunk lid and yanking on it. Oh no, I don't believe this! I started to run and
00:07:19 – I tripped over the gun that I'd had in my pants that I had totally forgotten
00:07:22 – was there. I stopped his head stop and think I collected my wits. Check all your
00:07:28 – pockets. I picked the gun up, I stuck it back in
00:07:30 – my pants, now remembering I had one. I checked all my pockets and there's the
00:07:35 – keys in the back pocket. I never put them in my back pocket. Everyone makes
00:07:39 – mistakes and that's what we have to hope for more mistakes they make the better
00:07:43 – better their chances. I thought I was pretty slick and went and stripped all
00:07:48 – over myself that first two murders, the first 24 hours there were three clear
00:07:54 – times I should have been busted and I wasn't because three different
00:07:58 – individuals or three different groups of people got scared and minded their own
00:08:03 – business and look the other way. Some of the
00:08:07 – people who are committing murders even as we speak if they're doing it by
00:08:11 – themselves and they tell no one about it, they could go on undetected until they
00:08:15 – decided to stop. And the police wouldn't catch them unless we just happen to roll
00:08:19 – up on them while they were doing it. Even after police warnings against
00:08:23 – hitchhiking and an increased bus schedule on the campus,
00:08:27 – Kemper had no trouble picking up hitchhikers. Ironically, one warning
00:08:32 – advised riding only in cars with University stickers. Kemper’s car had such
00:08:38 – a sticker. My mother worked at the campus and I had an “A” sticker on my car,
00:08:42 – an obvious access day or night to the campus. I was picking up some very lovely
00:08:46 – young women, you know what we were talking about as we're driving around
00:08:50 – almost as often as not. This guy is going around doing this stuff and the
00:08:55 – second they started talking that they didn't realize it that they were getting
00:08:58 – a free ride. I couldn't touch that with a 10-foot Pole, I swear, you know but they'd
00:09:04 – be telling me what all about this guy and then comparing notes, would speculate
00:09:07 – on what he looks like how he carries himself, why he's doing this stuff
00:09:11 – telling me about it. So how come they get in a car with
00:09:16 – somebody at that time? She judged me not to be that guy. I didn't look like it,
00:09:23 – it's getting easier to do, I was getting better at it, I was getting less
00:09:28 – Detectable, I started flaunting that Invisibility, severing a human head, two
00:09:34 – of them at night in front of my mother's residence, with her at home,
00:09:38 – my neighbor's at home, upstairs their picture window open and the curtains open 11
00:09:42 – o'clock at night, lights are on, all they have to do is walk by look out and I've
00:09:46 – had it. Why did you keep the heads? Why'd you cut them off and why did you keep them?
00:09:50 – Something out of my childhood. I could put it on an incident, I mean my father
00:09:59 – chopping the heads off of our two pet chickens and my mother insisting that I
00:10:02 – eat them for dinner. You know, that we could say it was something that simple. I
00:10:08 – don't think it was. Now my dad heads out back with a hatchet
00:10:12 – I got on my bike and I rode, I tried to stop it I remember that I got on the
00:10:16 – bike and I rode around the block. I was crying, I haven't talked about that for a lot of
00:10:21 – years. I'm sure that may have implemented something that may have gotten something
00:10:26 – rolling but along fantasy lines, but it took a lot of years of development along
00:10:30 – those lines to really get off. But how are you able to in one minute have
00:10:36 – someone's head in your hand and very shortly there after,Been living thru a fantasy,however
00:10:44 – that would relate to that severed head, and then five minutes later I put that away,
00:10:49 – and there'd be knock on the door and I'd put it away and answer the door
00:10:54 – and the landlady would be there and we discuss it. Discuss what? Reality. Her
00:11:01 – reality, not mine. Some people go crazy at that point, I felt it, it was one h*** of
00:11:07 – a tweak. I mean to just flip out and not know where I was to be walking up the
00:11:12 – stairs with a camera bag that belonged to a young woman, that had her severed
00:11:17 – head in it. Walking up to my apartment, passed a
00:11:22 – happy young couple coming down the stairs who nodded and smiled at me as
00:11:27 – they went by. “Good evening”, they're going out on a date
00:11:31 – Oh, I'd love to be going and I'm aware of both of these realities and the distance
00:11:37 – between those two is so dramatic, so amazing, so violent that really I could
00:11:44 – feel the wheel squeaking inside that was really pulling on it and I imagine at
00:11:48 – that point some people break, but I didn't literally go insane. I didn't get
00:11:52 – Lost. And all this time, Kemper was able to seem normal.
00:11:57 – He even hung out at a bar across the street from the courthouse, making
00:12:02 – friends with policemen, trying to pick up information. They'd buy me a beer I'd buy
00:12:07 – them a beer. Casual relationships, but that was I was poking around a little
00:12:11 – bit, trying to find some things out. I knew they wouldn't be privy to hot
00:12:15 – information but there were some things that were bothering me, like were there
00:12:18 – any speculations on how they were dying. Did the cops like you? Like I said, a
00:12:25 – friendly nuisance. I got in the way and it was deliberate. Again, friendly
00:12:31 – nuisances are dismissed. How did you get the knowledge to outsmart the police?
00:12:36 – Watching television. Believe it or not. Joseph Wambaugh, police story. Got some
00:12:42 – tremendous insights and did not just the gimmicks, the actual things the tidbits
00:12:47 – that you would pick up from their procedures, but the mechanics behind that.
00:12:50 – The logic behind that. I would not allow myself to walk into even a
00:12:55 – potential trap of behavior. And one of those was talking about those crimes too
00:13:01 – much to people. Initiating conversations about that. There was a memorial service
00:13:08 – for two of the victims. Yes. You attempted to go? Yes.
00:13:13 – But I'd seen one too many episodes, one too many crime shows where that is one
00:13:20 – of the available resources for clues. Tracking down the attenders. Take one man
00:13:25 – taking pictures of the people there, to eliminate as potential suspects. Some
00:13:30 – Police Department now they actually came your house to pick up a handgun.
00:13:35 – Sheriff's representatives. One of the detectives was upset because he heard I
00:13:41 – had a 44 Magnum pistol and was a convicted.. they came to take the gun away
00:13:46 – and it was on he and a sergeant detective.
00:13:49 – They were staking out the wrong houses across the street and I'm playing around
00:13:53 – the car, standing next to the gun, in the trunk. They come over and asked me about
00:13:57 – “Excuse me, sir, do you know who lives in this house across the street here?” Well
00:14:03 – that house was 609 Harriet he crossed back over to this side and
00:14:07 – the 609 Ord and they were looking for me and didn't even know. See what I mean?
00:14:12 – Bad news. Anyway, we walk in the house to have them ask my mother about
00:14:18 – this other house and I'm saying “Hey, which 609 are you looking for?” and they
00:14:21 – said are you, Ed Kemper? Yes. And it goes on and I needed to find out what they
00:14:28 – were looking for. The murder weapon, the 22 automatic or the 44 Magnum and I
00:14:32 – don't want to advertise that I've got a whole bunch of guns, so I made a comment
00:14:39 – just to divide between the two and I suggest quite a little, gun isn't it? And
00:14:45 – he retorted: “a 44 Magnum” and I’m: “I hope so” And was like:”Phew, okay because that loaded 22 was
00:14:52 – under the front seat and guarantee me an arrest right on the spot and 44 was in
00:14:58 – the trunk. I forgot that, I took them in the house, we went into my bedroom and
00:15:03 – the closet doors open and I have a high-powered rifle with a scope on it.
00:15:08 – You had some other stuff in the house – yes? Yeah, I had the personal effects and
00:15:14 – identification of the last two co-eds that had been murdered
00:15:17 – about two months before, right next to the guns in the closet. In a box. Could he
00:15:24 – have seen it? No, but when he arrested me for having all those guns and went
00:15:28 – through the rest of the closet looking to see if there were any pistols or
00:15:30 – anything else, he wouldn't have, couldn't have helped notice a purse a book bag
00:15:35 – and co-ed ID inside of those belonging to the two latest murder victims. I
00:15:40 – back up and said “Oh, excuse me I just remembered something and instantly
00:15:44 – response to what I'm saying, my hand moves back, we would go outside he's still
00:15:48 – thinking: “boy, this is a really nice and helpful guy here.” Some of these people
00:15:52 – are doing what you and I do to become better killers. They practice their trade
00:15:56 – Didn’t Kemper stop himself but at the end of his career?
00:16:00 – Kemper says he did. He says he could have gone on, he said he had fantasies of
00:16:04 – killing dozens more people, of leaving a trail of bodies across the country and at
00:16:09 – one point, he just got on a telephone and turned himself in. He said it was time
00:16:13 – for the killing stop. In his case, he said publicly that it was his mother that he
00:16:17 – was killing all along and when he killed his mother that was the end. It's a very
00:16:22 – deep psychological observation from himself and it may be very accurate. It was
00:16:27 – springtime it was April for two months I hadn't
00:16:32 – Killed. I said it's not going to happen anymore, girls, it's got to stay between
00:16:37 – me and my mother and it's got to… I can't get away from her, we're still fighting,
00:16:43 – she still belittling, she's still… I'm like a puppet on a string and I
00:16:46 – entertain her. She knows all my buttons and I dance like a puppet. With that pain
00:16:50 – and… it had even gotten physical, to where I had physically grabbed her and thrown
00:16:57 – her on her bed trying to emphasize a point that she's… I was threatening to kill her.
00:17:02 – So here I pick up these two young ladies in Berkeley on Ashbee Avenue.
00:17:07 – One has flowers in her hand. Petite little dolls. They are in granny dresses and
00:17:12 – their hitchhike. A couple of real experts. I want to see how together I am if I can
00:17:17 – resist this temptation. “You going to Walnut Creek, right?”
00:17:26 – And they get in my car. They want to go one way I know they need to go the other.
00:17:32 – If they go the way they're insisting on, we're headed right back out to where the
00:17:35 – first two coeds were murdered and I'm saying to myself “Oh my God, all I got to
00:17:40 – do is relax and they'll take me to their death.”
00:17:43 – I've got the gun in the car. The same one I've been doing it with. I insisted. As
00:17:49 – gently as I could, I took them where they needed to go. To their college. That was
00:18:02 – one week before I murdered my mother. I said she's got to die and I've got to
00:18:07 – die or girls like that are gonna die. And that's when I decided I'm going to
00:18:12 – murder my mother. I knew a week before she died I was going to kill her and she
00:18:17 – went out to a party, she got soused, she came home, went to sleep. I was woken up
00:18:22 – by that. I got… came out, I walked up to her, bed she's laying there reading a
00:18:27 – paperback as many thousands of nights before, and she said “Oh, I suppose you're
00:18:37 – going to want to sit up all night and talk now…”
00:18:41 – S***… I looked at her I said “No” I said “Good night”.
00:18:50 – And I knew I was gonna kill her, you know, and I’m so cold and so hard and that's
00:18:58 – the first time in ten years I've looked at it that way. I mean that intensely,
00:19:03 – that honestly, It hurts. Because I'm not a lizard, I'm not from under a rock,
00:19:10 – I came out of her v*****, you see, came out of my mother and in a rage I went right
00:19:18 – back in. For seven years she said “I haven't had
00:19:22 – s** with a man because of you, my murderous son”, is one of our arguments.
00:19:27 – I cut off her head and I… and I humiliated her corpse. It's a dare, you
00:19:38 – know? Six young woman dead because of the way she raises her son and the way her
00:19:44 – son is raised, the way he grows up and what’s her closing words? “I suppose you want
00:19:50 – to sit up all night and talk cut” God I… I wish I had.
00:19:59 – Your grandmother and her daughter-in-law, your mother, were two women very
00:20:06 – important in your life and you killed them both. Could you say what they were
00:20:12 – like that led them to the same fate? Same thing that kept them from ever being
00:20:18 – friends. Were both aggressive, matriarchal women.
00:20:24 – They'd been the daughters of strong matriarchal women. I still loved my
00:20:29 – mother and it's hard for somebody to comprehend that you murdered your mother
00:20:32 – through love. It isn't a rational process. It's a very painful process it isn't
00:20:37 – rational and I've got to still live with that. Why did you end up giving yourself
00:20:42 – up? It had to stop. It had to stop once my mother was dead. There's it almost a
00:20:50 – cathartic process at that point. I got physically ill right then, when she died
00:20:55 – when I murdered her and once she was dead there was no way I could back out. I
00:21:00 – backed down from giving up a thousand times, you know, I just used to get drunk
00:21:06 – and go sit out in front of the sheriff's department in a parking lot across the
00:21:09 – street on one of those little concrete parking berms. I just sit there and say
00:21:14 – “Oh, I still can't”. The clanging doors, I can still hear them. No, because they'll
00:21:20 – never open again.
00:21:23 – you know, so I rationalized that to give up would be insane, to give up would be
00:21:29 – Crazy. I'd be giving away my freedom and I don't need to, but I look back on that
00:21:35 – and wish I had earlier, when I was saying those things to myself. The people who
00:21:41 – were later dead wouldn't be the regret that came later, would have not had to be.
00:21:48 – Those people, not things, those people would still be with their families, with
00:21:53 – their loved ones, they would have their own families. If I had had the courage to
00:21:58 – make that decision instead of painting myself into the corner. Where might you
00:22:04 – be if you'd never given in to the impulse to murder. Where might I be if my
00:22:11 – parole had been successful? I believe I'd be married, I'd have children I'd be
00:22:17 – heading toward my first grandchildren.
00:22:26 – Ed Kemper was detained in a mental hospital from the age of 21 for the
00:22:30 – murder of his grandparents, but was later released in the advice of psychiatrists.
00:22:34 – Within two years he had decapitated, mutilated six students as well as his
00:22:39 – mother and her best friend. He sometimes raped the corpses. In 1973 he gave
00:22:44 – himself up since when Ed Kemper has been detained in a reformed hospital in
00:22:47 – California.
00:23:06 – Vacaville prison, near San Francisco is the largest prison in the West, with
00:23:11 – around 10,000 inmates. Ed Kemper teaches computer science here and takes
00:23:20 – part in a program recording literature for the blind. All of which will help
00:23:24 – him earn early remission.
00:23:33 – Hi. My younger sister is two years younger and I developed some morbid games. My
00:23:42 – life had started going that way at about eight. At a certain time of the evening,
00:23:46 – the family left the center room, the living room of the house. My mother and
00:23:51 – my sisters or my sisters themselves would go up to bed
00:23:54 – Upstairs, where I used to go to bed, Upstairs. I had to go down to the
00:23:58 – basement. And an eight-year-old child had a tough time differentiating the reason
00:24:03 – in that. Why am I going to the basement? I'm going to h***, they're going to
00:24:07 – Heaven. And what would those games that you played with your sister? Well, the one
00:24:17 – I remember, someone talking about it in a book, was one it was playing “gas
00:24:24 – chamber – electric chair” or something and we had this big old overstuffed chair up
00:24:28 – in my room and we'd… it was not just my sister and I, it was my sister and I and
00:24:33 – a friend. Close friend. We got into all these games. We got into one game where
00:24:37 – we'd roll up in a rug and a person who tried to get out of it was just like a
00:24:41 – large throw rug and it was… I guess what fascinated us individually about it is
00:24:48 – it was a completely… it broke up the monotony. I guess of what we were doing,
00:24:55 – didn't have a lot of toys to play with, we were bored with those pretty quickly,
00:24:59 – so we looked for things to do. You roll up in the rug and you try to get out and
00:25:03 – the other two would leave the room and we see who could get out fastest, you
00:25:06 – know… We try to work your way out sideways or scoot out the end of it or
00:25:09 – whatever and we went from that to being tied in this overstuffed chair with cord
00:25:15 – or something, or pieces of sheet or sash or something and it went through
00:25:21 – this process, I guess that's back when in 1960 when Caryl Chessman was executed.
00:25:27 – What were those fantasies? What were they? Yes. Possessing the severed heads of
00:25:37 – women. Men didn't turn me on. That wasn't very… I couldn't appreciate
00:25:42 – the appearances of a guy… that when I was young, I was
00:25:46 – about eight or nine years old I went to a this little… it was like at a
00:25:51 – record store or something and they had this crowd of kids. There's a magic show.
00:25:55 – And this guy you've probably seen it the fake guillotine hand pressed and they
00:26:00 – put the potato there and someone puts their neck in the… in the brace and they
00:26:05 – slammed this thing down and the potato down below chops in two – but the person's
00:26:10 – head doesn't, all right? And everybody gets very fascinated by that. “Oh my God!”
00:26:14 – And then when he puts the blade in place and he pushes it down it goes through
00:26:17 – that neck hole but it never chops anybody's head off. Okay, so he wanted a
00:26:23 – volunteer out of this. I'm now standing in this crowd watching this show and he
00:26:27 – wanted a volunteer out of the audience and some quite beautiful
00:26:31 – sixteen-year-old girl gets up there and big laugh, all giddy and stuff and I
00:26:35 – start getting caught up in this. I said “Wow!”
00:26:38 – Then right at that moment I departed reality because logically, I should have
00:26:42 – been able to ascertain that that could not happen. You're not going to get away
00:26:45 – with chopping somebody's head off in the middle of… in the middle of Helena
00:26:50 – Montana, in the capital city, but the concept of it was so raw and it was
00:26:57 – titillating I said “Wow, Jeez I want watch this”. And he had her girlfriend come over
00:27:03 – and put her hands there to catch her head, so it wouldn't fall in the basket,
00:27:07 – you know, and he was making jokes about this. I got caught up in this…
00:27:11 – this interplay between normal concerns you don't want to get a bump on her head
00:27:15 – while hey if you're chopping her head off it doesn't matter, right? And this is
00:27:19 – catching in my mind somehow and I'm saying “Wow”. The first time, okay?
00:27:25 – The two girls were killed around 6:00 p.m. by 11:00 the next morning they are
00:27:29 – both completely gone out of my life physically, all right? That's not even 24
00:27:34 – hours. The third murder which is the second incident, okay?
00:27:38 – I'm in the middle of trying to get my record sealed, right? Thursday night I
00:27:43 – killed her. I took off Friday. I didn't go to work I called in sick took CTO, all
00:27:48 – right? Dismembered her body, got rid of her body
00:27:52 – but kept her head in her hands because they're identifiable they're highly
00:27:56 – identifying. I kept those at the apartment, okay? That
00:28:01 – Friday night, Thursday night I took Her, Friday morning she was
00:28:06 – Dismembered. Friday night she was disposed of, right? Saturday morning I
00:28:11 – Left, right? And I didn't have… I wasn't satisfied that I took the head along with
00:28:17 – the hands but, I didn't… I couldn't put them someplace that I would… could be
00:28:19 – sure they would be dug up by an animal or just be somewhere. It was scary
00:28:23 – going out there, trying to bury somebody or dispose of body parts in a community
00:28:28 – or outing, or even in the boonies where you don't know where you're at and who
00:28:31 – can come up at any moment. I had some real close calls there when people that
00:28:34 – come out of nowhere and if they if a body's found and they remember this
00:28:38 – beige looking car sitting there that night. That's evidence, so it was very
00:28:43 – very hard to get rid of this stuff. So anyway, it's Saturday morning I went to
00:28:46 – see the psychiatrist in Fresno. Saturday afternoon, I saw the other one. Saturday
00:28:50 – evening. I'm with my fiancee and her family over in Turlock. Sunday night I
00:28:54 – come back to my apartment. Could you tell us how long
00:28:59 – you've been in prison? Excuse me. This month is 18 years that I've actually been in
00:29:07 – prison. What were you convicted of? Eight counts the first-degree murder.
00:29:14 – And what was your sentence? Seven years to life
00:29:21 – CC. That's called concurrent. It means all the sentences run at the same time. Two years
00:29:28 – before you committed crimes I think you traveled quite a lot on the freeways at
00:29:35 – night, or picking up hitchhikers. During the day. During the day. Yeah, I traveled a
00:29:41 – lot because I'd been locked up for five and a half years. I never had a license.
00:29:45 – Well I just gotten a license when I got locked up the first time, the Montana
00:29:49 – license and so I was free. The driving around was a way to exhibit that freedom,
00:29:56 – to demonstrate it, to get the cobwebs out of me. When I in the first got out, I love
00:30:02 – to drive. I always did love as a kid to drive. I started driving when I was 10 or
00:30:06 – 12 years old, but I got a license when I was 15 up in Montana and then I got
00:30:11 – locked up, and then here in California… and I got out, got a license and I just
00:30:16 – started driving and that was my main hobby I'd say. And I saw a lot of people
00:30:21 – out hitchhiking and I didn't select girls to pick up. I picked up anybody who
00:30:26 – wanted to ride. And over that whole three-year period it was the same way. If
00:30:30 – someone needed a ride, I picked them up and less specifically I was looking for
00:30:34 – someone to do in. The crimes… it goes from May to September. May 7th,
00:30:42 – Sunday to Thursday, September 14th. Then it hops over to January, right? And
00:30:48 – Then to February. It's speeding up. It's coming to a head, it's getting to where
00:30:54 – it wasn't a cyclical thing, but it was coming to… where it was coming more often. And
00:31:00 – something I didn't tell a whole lot of people, I guess I did tell in one
00:31:03 – interview shortly before it all ended, I drove up to the Bay Area and I was… well
00:31:09 – I was living there I was up in Alameda. I was living with my mother in Santa Cruz
00:31:13 – and commuting because I had to work up there. I stayed with a friend. I went out
00:31:18 – to Berkeley and I drove Ashby Avenue, one of the places I used
00:31:21 – to drive, looking for coeds and I drove from highway 80 up Ashby Avenue to
00:31:28 – highway 13. The first two coeds I killed one Ashby Avenue, they were 5 foot 2,
00:31:35 – sleight of figure, you know, we call petit. Ones black hair, ones blonde hair,
00:31:41 – Okay? Now I'm driving the opposite direction of Ashby Avenue. It's a year
00:31:46 – later. I'm seeing if I can maintain. I'm not hunting. I'm out seeing if I can
00:31:49 – maintain. I have a weapon in a car, I have everything else fitting the situation.
00:31:55 – I'm seeing if I can maintain if I can just let go of it and maintain. And marry
00:31:59 – this young lady and go on. I go driving up there and here's these two young
00:32:04 – Ladies. Five foot two, one's got blonde Hair, one’s got black hair. They're in
00:32:09 – granny dresses and I've haven't s*** fits because it's like deja vu and I’m “Oh
00:32:15 – my God”, I just… I acted in a way that they wouldn't be paranoid because I'm a young
00:32:19 – Man, by myself in this car. I diffused the situation as I drove up. I'd gotten
00:32:24 – practice at that. Well that driving around, it wasn't rehearsing. I made a
00:32:28 – game out of driving around picking people up and later on I discerned that
00:32:32 – some people wouldn't get in my car, because of the situation. I'm a young man,
00:32:35 – by myself, it's unsafe. So I thought “well Gee” you know, that kind of put me off.
00:32:41 – I'm not doing anything to anybody. So I want to see if I can change that
00:32:44 – situation where they'll want to get in and I can take them where they're going.
00:32:47 – Because I know I'm not going to do anything. And I got to where I could
00:32:52 – defuse that situation. It’s how you're looking. If you looking at them “oh boy!” and
00:32:55 – you start cranking the car over there, they're not going to get in your car.
00:32:57 – Because they can see you from half a block away drooling, but if you look at
00:33:02 – your watch and say “jeez I don't know if I have enough time” and you're kind of…looking in
00:33:05 – the mirror, looking around and you pull over. They say “Eh it’s just this guy, a businessman going
00:33:09 – somewhere” We’ll get this car we'll go where we're going. And it’s some little games I
00:33:14 – played so they get in the car. And then we chatted and I talked about things and
00:33:18 – I found out where their orientations were and their little… what they used to
00:33:21 – judge and who could get in and who they could get in with and who they couldn't.
00:33:24 – Right? In that sense it's been interpreted as… what do you call it?
00:33:29 – Rehearsing. It's not true, it's like playing chess and then turning it into
00:33:33 – something ugly. I played chess casually, I played chess more and more thoroughly,
00:33:37 – till I got very good at it. Which was picking up people to where I could make
00:33:41 – you a bet. I can pick up those two ladies and they'd say “oh man, you're crazy! those
00:33:45 – are two very crafty young ladies who won't get in a car with a young man by
00:33:48 – himself” etc etc and I'd win the bet because I
00:33:52 – knew how to defuse the situation, even if they asked “where are you headed?”, right?
00:33:56 – And they had a sign saying where they're Going, but they'd ask… or even if
00:34:00 – they didn't, they say “where are you headed?” And I had ways of developing it
00:34:03 – to where they wouldn't get suspicious, but I didn't mean I was going to kill
00:34:07 – him, it meant I was playing a game and then later when I started killing people,
00:34:10 – I used that against them. But initially it was just a hobby, it was a habit, it
00:34:16 – was trying to fill in the blanks of five and a half years of not being in society.
00:34:20 – I missed that flower child generation. I missed the entry into Vietnam. All that
00:34:24 – Stuff. And all these kids are like aliens to me. Yeah I say, kids.
00:34:28 – I missed 16 17 18 19 20 21. I'm supposed to be associating with people in their
00:34:34 – a**** years, but I missed the big chunk so I'm out there trying to fill in the
00:34:38 – gaps. Find out why these kids are the way they are now, because they were totally
00:34:42 – different from the kids that I was. When I was that age? Totally different. And I'm
00:34:47 – trying to fill the gaps in and then later I changed that to something ugly.
00:34:50 – And why? My mother works at the University. My mother won't introduce me
00:34:56 – to any young ladies at the University because I'm like my father and I don't
00:34:59 – deserve to know any of those ladies. So here she is holding these little
00:35:02 – girls, up there is too good for me, very special, if anything I was
00:35:07 – destroying icons. I was hurting her without her even knowing it. Again, is
00:35:12 – that picky you know petty uh ineffectual “I'm getting back at you
00:35:18 – but I don't have the heart to tell you what I'm doing”. See, why would I admit
00:35:22 – those things on a camera that's embarrassing. It’s humiliating.
00:35:27 – How would you select your victims? Whether… I didn't select them. It was
00:35:32 – random and it was also the development of the passion. If I was drove, they died.
00:35:37 – Like the last two victims. I was so p***** I would have killed anybody that got in
00:35:42 – the car. You said you had a lot of sympathy and empathy towards Marian Pesci when
00:35:49 – you talked to her, but isn't that strange to say that after you had killed her in
00:35:53 – such a brutal fashion? There was a draw. There was a draw to the end late, was
00:35:57 – Haunting. I'm not saying I had compassion toward her when I talked to her. I tried
00:36:02 – to remember what we talked about. In fact, I think what I said about her was is
00:36:07 – that she epitomized what really drove me. She was a hottie young lady, she's kind
00:36:13 – of stuck-up, distant, I look back on it and I see a girl that was not beautiful,
00:36:18 – she was not playing, she was somewhere in between and she was caught up in that
00:36:22 – beauty thing. Like kids in the valley are. Okay? Valley girls? Trying to make
00:36:27 – something of themselves and exploit little attributes they have and to
00:36:31 – downplay other ones. And she was playing Little Miss distant with me. And her
00:36:35 – friend was very open and very, her roommate, was very open and very country
00:36:39 – girl talking and stuff. And it said because the pêche was the… Mary Ann was
00:36:46 – the expert at hitchhiking. She had to have her life in Europe,
00:36:49 – she'd hitchhiked around Europe, she'd done it the United States, she was good
00:36:54 – at it. She didn't want to get in the car. The other girl Anita Luchessa. She wasn't
00:37:00 – a hitchhiker. She had been raised by her family, don't do things like that, that's
00:37:03 – totally out of line and her friend talked her into it. And once she got into
00:37:07 – it and she saw how much fun it was, they meet the different people and they talk
00:37:10 – with people. That by the time they're leaving Berkeley, right? It's all about
00:37:16 – who gets the front seat, who gets the back seat. So she… you know, she opened
00:37:20 – the door and asked where I was headed. And it said Stanford, right on their sign,
00:37:26 – they were holding up. And I said I'm going to Palo Alto, I can
00:37:28 – drop you off. “Oh great!”, and she jumps in, grabs her stuff, jumps in, opens the back
00:37:33 – seat up for her friend who's standing there looking at me, long and serious
00:37:37 – about whether or not, because I could tell at the time she knows better than
00:37:41 – to get in. Single a****, it's a coupe a instead of a full door car, so she cannot
00:37:47 – get out other than through the front seat. So that's all the warning signs of
00:37:51 – not getting in with a single… you know in that kind of a situation. All of the
00:37:55 – things were wrong about it, but when I drove up, I pulled that little stunt of,
00:37:58 – looking at my watch. You know, “do I have time to pick them up?” and you wouldn't
00:38:03 – believe how much effect that kind of thing has and when she kept staring at
00:38:06 – me and looking for something wrong in my eyes, I gave this look back
00:38:11 – like “I don't understand… why are you looking at me like this?” I gave her that
00:38:14 – back and she says “Oh, this guy's a dork. He's innocent his h***”. She gets in,
00:38:19 – Okay? We're driving along and I'm looking at this young lady in the rearview
00:38:23 – mirror and I look back at it years later and I'm saying “she kept looking me back
00:38:27 – – right in the eyeballs” I'm wearing dark glasses but they're not totally dark and
00:38:32 – I'm realizing now that she could see me looking at her and she was looking right
00:38:36 – back at me and instead of saying something to me like “what are you
00:38:40 – looking at?” or “hey, maybe you got to drop us off” or something like that, she just
00:38:44 – kept looking back at me and I'm looking at her and she keeps looking at me I'm
00:38:47 – thinking she's playing this little game. It's uh, it's not really teasing, so to
00:38:52 – speak, it's just this little psychological game, back and forth that
00:38:55 – men and women do sometimes. The young girl in the front, Anita, was at one point
00:39:02 – in the driving and I'm sure they were doing little looks at each
00:39:06 – other in little comments that I didn't pick up because I'm driving and looking
00:39:10 – for places to go that somewhere in that communication she gave me this sexy
00:39:14 – little look, you know, like “oh boy, pretty good-looking guy”, you know, and I
00:39:19 – smiled back at her. But not that hungry look “I’d like to get down with you” kind of thing.
00:39:25 – It was just I smiled back at her and I saw it for what it was. It's an 18 year
00:39:29 – old girl that's feeling her oats. She's not doing anything wrong. It's just this
00:39:32 – sadness, real pathetic. But some of this stuff was, I was getting real caught up
00:39:37 – in this girl in the back seat, you know, I was…
00:39:40 – She was, you know, to me, at that, point she was really beautiful. She had the most
00:39:44 – incredible blue eyes, right? She had this really shiny black hair that was turning
00:39:48 – me on and I was getting drove because I just kept playing this game of picking
00:39:53 – people up and I have plugged in those fantasies of killing and, you know,
00:39:59 – the titillating little fantasies and I’d say “Geez, I keep walking away from that” and I
00:40:06 – put myself down as being weak for not being able to do something about that.
00:40:10 – Right? So I kept driving and driving on myself saying “I got to do something! I
00:40:14 – got to do something about this!” How were you feeling why you would killing? What…
00:40:24 – Well, you see, especially the first two which were very messy it was a shock
00:40:28 – that first time that horrified me. I did everything stupid, everything wrong. If I
00:40:33 – was trying to get away with it. It was this really dumb. The knife
00:40:36 – I fell back on it, was a fallback position as trying to smother her. That
00:40:39 – didn't work and she was struggling against that and arguing with me about
00:40:44 – it and I got frustrated and I reached in my pocket. I had that folding knife and I
00:40:53 – pulled it out and for a lot of years, and I say I met a point of saying back then
00:40:57 – with the investigators, when I pulled the knife out and locked it into place, that
00:41:01 – clicked and she said “what's that?” that's a quote. “What's that?” and she was
00:41:05 – kind of like a eggie kind of thing. “What's that?” and I couldn't figure
00:41:10 – out why she said that. Like it's not that big an impact, a little clicking sound
00:41:15 – behind her, you know amongst what's going on and it hadn't been murderous up to
00:41:19 – that point. It had been an aggravation and I was… I had her tied up or
00:41:23 – handcuffed and it took me years for it to dawn on me, trying to look at it
00:41:30 – from different points of view, to understand these things. Why she said
00:41:34 – that? You know why she said that? Because I had brandished this gun and I had
00:41:39 – cocked it once and it clicked. So in her mind, very possibly, I had
00:41:46 – pulled the gun out and was going to shoot her. So she said “what's that?” and
00:41:50 – thinking I pulled a gun out now and I'm cocking it, not realizing I pulled a
00:41:55 – knife out. I still had the gun in my pants. I stabbed her she didn't fall dead.
00:42:00 – You're supposed to fall dead, you're supposed to go all the way and fall dead. We've
00:42:02 – seen it all the movies, right? Doesn't work that way. When you stab someone, they
00:42:07 – leak to death. They lose blood pressure and you stab them more and more and more.
00:42:12 – You complicate it many times by where you're hitting, the pain you're causing
00:42:15 – and the aggravation of the person involved. Plus whether or not the leak a
00:42:20 – little faster. It wasn't working worth the d***. I stabbed her all over her back.
00:42:25 – She even turned around a stabbed on the side of the stomach once. Why? As she
00:42:30 – turned around, I could have stabbed her through the heart, but her b****** were
00:42:34 – there and had actually deflected me. I couldn't see stabbing a young woman in
00:42:40 – her breast. That's embarrassing. I didn't say that to
00:42:43 – them back then, I don't think I may have, but that's humiliating to admit that. That
00:42:50 – I was that affected by her presence, I stabbed her in the belly that had to
00:42:55 – hurt worse. I didn't do it to make it hurt, I was trying to shut her up and she
00:42:59 – ended up getting her throat cut and I learned the term ear to ear, what that
00:43:05 – meant. Because that's the way it went. And she went out of it completely right then,
00:43:11 – she lost consciousness and died probably just moments after that, but I just
00:43:15 – backed up out of the car, my hands are covered in blood and I'm saying “Oh God, I
00:43:18 – did it, I did it! I don't believe it! I did it! S***, I've done it! Now I got to kill
00:43:22 – the other one.” And we head toward the end when I picked those two girls up and I
00:43:28 – said they were just like the first two like Mary Anne Pesce or even Luchessa,
00:43:31 – who haunted me all this time, and now two more just like them get in
00:43:35 – the car. We drive up 13 and we get to this
00:43:39 – figure-eight cloverleaf interchange where hits 580 and they want to go under
00:43:46 – the freeway, back up on and head out this way. And out that way I happen to know
00:43:51 – just a couple of miles down the road is Paulo Maris Drive where I took a needle
00:43:55 – to Luchessa and Mary Anne Pesce and kill them. Mills College is back this way toward downtown.
00:44:01 – They don't think so. They want to go this way. I'm saying “Gee,
00:44:05 – you don't want to go that way.” and I can't tell them why. “You do not want to
00:44:09 – go that way.” “Mills College is this way”. “Well, know we are…
00:44:13 – we go there and we know, we live there and we want to go…” As we're
00:44:16 – approaching this interchange, I'm saying “No, we need to go in the right lane, get
00:44:21 – up on the freeway and go downtown. You want to get the left lane, go under…” Cross
00:44:24 – Up and that's going to be another step closer to you dying. Because even if I
00:44:29 – don't go all the way out to Palamerus Road up 580, if I stop where it starts to
00:44:33 – go out in the country and get back on the freeway, that's where I used to work
00:44:36 – on the highways. That's one of the places where it's a cul-de-sac you drive down,
00:44:40 – there it's a very quiet street, comes down upon to the freeway very sharply
00:44:44 – and they're dead. If these urges take over and if I go that way, it's not
00:44:50 – encouraging me to stop. It's testing beyond where I want to test. We've
00:44:54 – already gone beyond that with them getting in the car because “Jeez, it's
00:44:57 – just like those first two.” I was actually scared to death, you know, I was going to kill them
00:45:02 – and I, by that point, I had killed all of the coeds, those two months after the
00:45:07 – last two. And I'm seeing if I can pull out of it. Like drinking or
00:45:11 – something or smoking and if the point where we're bickering, if they'd started
00:45:16 – shrieking or banging on the windows I'm busted. They're going to pull me over,
00:45:19 – someone's going to call a cop or something and they're going to get me
00:45:22 – and probably bust me on these other cases on a fluke and I'm trying to save
00:45:26 – their lives. I don't want them going that way because I know Mills College is this
00:45:29 – other way they get scared shitless. “Oh my God, we shouldn’t have gone this guy's
00:45:34 – car!” Getting all puckered up in the road and I said “Just bear with me, be
00:45:40 – Patient, if I'm wrong I'll get on the turnoff we'll go right back around, take
00:45:43 – you out your way, but I know it's the next turn off of the one past it this
00:45:47 – Way, downtown. Trust me, please! And they're sitting like this and they
00:45:53 – quit talking a minute, looking straight ahead and I'm saying “Aw s***! Gun’s under
00:45:58 – the seat, it's all just, you know, “Whoa”. I get up on the freeway, to turn offs Mills
00:46:03 – College, in fact, the next one said, Mills College next exit, you know, but they're
00:46:08 – not relaxing or nothing. I had refused to take them the way they wanted
00:46:12 – to go and pushed it the other way. That's what scared them, but they didn't know the
00:46:16 – irony of it was if I had gone along their way, I'd have probably said
00:46:20 – “yeah, well, I just follow on through” and Woops, will do it one more time. How do
00:46:24 – You “woops” human lives? I don't know those two young ladies and I don't know
00:46:28 – where they are today and I don't know if they remember that little incident,
00:46:31 – but when I drove them to Mills College, inside of Mills College, to their college
00:46:36 – entrance, right to the building to the dormitory and they got out of that car
00:46:40 – and flew up those stairs and never even looked back,
00:46:43 – I'll bet they quit hitchhiking quite so casually after that. But you know what? I
00:46:47 – don't think they know to this day how close that came and the irony of it
00:46:54 – is just that, just to shut them up and not have them freak out I could have gone the
00:46:57 – other way, but by that time they we're going back up that groove of what I had
00:47:02 – done already and what I was familiar with, see I'm saying? And that day I
00:47:07 – knew I could not stop doing, it I knew I had no control over, it I had just
00:47:10 – minimal controls, but mainly I could not stop it. It was going to happen again and
00:47:15 – between that weekend day, I was a Saturday or Sunday. I think it was a
00:47:19 – Sunday. Between that Sunday and the next Saturday all that week I was working. I
00:47:25 – built an image in my head: My mother's going to die. I'm going to kill her and I
00:47:29 – am going to go to it with the police and we're going to hold court the street and
00:47:33 – they're going to pound me on the ground and they can fill in the blanks, because
00:47:36 – I don't want to be around to explain it. All that week I just… it was a conviction
00:47:41 – that just got deeper and deeper in me. I got more and more morose, I got less and less
00:47:45 – talkative at work, I got more sombre about what I was doing because almost
00:47:50 – every minute of every day I knew that's what that next weekend held. That was
00:47:53 – Easter weekend. Right? Worked half a day Friday, when I came back to
00:47:59 – Santa Cruz on Friday afternoon, was drinking Friday night, fell asleep before my
00:48:04 – mother came home. Woke up after she came home and the last words we had were an
00:48:08 – argument. Right? I walked into her bedroom to chat with her I was a bit back. I'm
00:48:15 – not trying to try to blame her for dying, I'm just saying I, in the back of my mind,
00:48:18 – I was hoping she could say something or I'd say something that could stop all of
00:48:22 – this s***. A little childish hope in the back of my mind, she'd say something I
00:48:26 – just play it off… But you still went with a hammer…
00:48:30 – Wait a minute, wait a minute… you're wiping out the moment here. I went in
00:48:34 – there hoping I could stop this stuff in the back of my head I'm not planning on
00:48:39 – It, I'm just… a little hope and the first thing out of her mouth was… she's reading
00:48:43 – this book and she just flaps it down on herself and says “Oh my God, I suppose now
00:48:47 – you want to stay up all night and talk.” That was one of her favorite peeves when
00:48:51 – I come in late at night want to talk. And once in a long while, like that night, I'd
00:48:57 – spun on my heel and said “Nope, Good night!”. walk back out. And she knew she'd hurt my
00:49:03 – feelings and the next day we'd sit down and talk.
00:49:06 – Except I knew that we weren't going to talk. And I went back to my room and I
00:49:11 – laid down. I did not go to sleep, I laid there for three hours, four hours,
00:49:16 – till 4:00 5:00 in the morning. Little after 5:00 in the morning I walked in
00:49:19 – there with a hammer, and caved in the side of her head.
00:49:24 – And cut her throat.

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